[etoys-dev] Etoys developer chat log

Bert Freudenberg bert at freudenbergs.de
Tue May 11 01:46:01 EDT 2010

Hi everyone,

today we talked about a couple of exciting things:

* we're happy to have figured out the updating problem (related to locale)
* noticed that the World's geometry is hard to access (someone file a ticket please)
* Ricardo made progress on splitting the translations, yay
* Bert promised to write up how to submit Monticello updates
* the subversion repository is open again too, mail me your htpasswd
* Derek's new Camera morph should work on Windows, Mac and Linux
* OLPC keyboards for larger fingers
* we'll try to make next year's Etoys release be based on squeak.org
* ... which will Squeakland allow to focus on the educational aspects
* quickly touched on event recording (Hilaire's macros maybe?)

Was a fun meeting all around. Full log below.

How about we alternate the time every other week (or have two per week?) so that our friends on the earlier side of the globe can join? If we slip it by 12 hours it would be afternoon in Japan, morning in Europe, and midnight on the US west coast, that might work? See here http://tinyurl.com/39pmfjj

In any case, you are welcome to join the next chat on Monday, at 12 noon Squeakland Time as usual:


- Bert -

<kencausey> pre-meeting (I may not be here): No news on logging via clog, might be time to consider alternatives.
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<jecel> There has been zero traffic here outside the weekly meetings, so this isn't too urgent
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<kencausey> No, but it would, for example, allow catching questions that often go unanswered.
<jecel> I agree that it would be a good thing
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<karlram> hello
<Richo2> hi
<karlram> what time is the meeting?
<Richo2> I believe it will start in fifteen minutes
<jecel> In about 15 minutes
<jecel> http://tinyurl.com/23cf2c2
<karlram> thanks
<bertf> what do I need to write in the announcement so it's clear which time it is?
<bertf> I mean, it's even the same time each week ...
<jecel> The announcement was very clear (at least to somebody who already knows enough to be interested in participating)
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<jecel> But someone might not have read any emails since Friday, for example, and so not have seen it yet
<karlram> lol
<karlram> sorry bert
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<karlram> im just  a little confused
<matmo> hi all
<bertf> hi
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<bertf> karlram: I'm glad we figured out the flaps problem
<bertf> I guess you use Swedish?
<matmo> hi Bert. Is there a reason there are no tiles for world width & height?
<karlram> windows is swedish, yes
<karlram> matmo: i dont think so
<karlram> other than that world hs imited categories
<bertf> matmo: guess we were overzealous taking stuff out :)
<matmo> karlram: must be an oversight, no "geometry" or "more-geometry" categories at all.
<matmo> bertf: ah, ok :-)
<bertf> matmo: well you can't modify the geometry of the world
<bertf> so we removed most of the stuff
<bertf> you can still get at it of course
<matmo> no, but useful when moving morphs around under script control
<bertf> like, make a script that uses a rectangle's width
<bertf> and drop in a world tile as receiver :)
<matmo> bertf: yeah, figured that but wondered if kids would
<karlram> world should have read ony tiles
<bertf> karlram: +1
<bertf> just asmop ;)
<karlram> :)
<matmo> I'll take a look at re-instating them
<matmo> asmop?
<karlram> a small matter of programming
<matmo> ok
<bertf> second google hit ;)
<matmo> much quicker response here, lol
<bertf> okay folks - anything you'ld like to talk about today?
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<bertf> Richo2: I see you're making great progress :)
<Richo2> thanks!
<Richo2> I'm a little delayed in the schedule
<karlram> is there work left for summer :-)
<bertf> :)
<Richo2> I'm fighting with the translation stuff right now
<karlram> ah
<bertf> Richo2: what do you need to fight about?
<Richo2> I made the division for the po files
<bertf> should be really simple
<bertf> Oh ... great!!!
<karlram> nice
<Richo2> but I couldn't export all the translations the image already has
<Richo2> only the ones left in InternalTranslator
<Richo2> which I think are incomplete
<bertf> you're not supposed to export them
<Richo2> I'm not?
<bertf> the po files are not generated from etoys
<bertf> they are hand-written
<bertf> the only thing you export are the templates
<bertf> pot's
<bertf> in the latest dev image, teh InternalTranslator is already empty
<Richo2> Yes, I know. But most of the translation is already there so I figured there must be an easy way to export them to the new format
<Richo2> so that I could make the new mo files
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<bertf> well, it's not built-in
<Richo2> anyway, I managed to make po files with the InternalTranslator translations
<Richo2> and then I convert them to mo files
<bertf> but they are outdated
<Richo2> it was just for testing
<bertf> my plan was to just export the pots and then use some of the gettext apps to split the po's
<bertf> ah, good
<bertf> and it works?
<Richo2> yes
<Richo2> but it's slow
<Richo2> because I haven't made the methodproperties
<bertf> you could put it in the inbox so we can test
<Richo2> that's another question I have
<Richo2> the script I used to set the text domains should be in the preamble of the package?
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<bertf> no ...
<bertf> the way I envision the dual update stream / package repository to be used is:
<bertf> 1) code changes go into packages.
<bertf> 2) do-its go into the update stream
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<bertf> and to sync between the two we put a package config map into the stream
<bertf> so you would just commit the code changes to the repository
<bertf> then make a new config map
<bertf> put that into the stream
<Richo2> I use monticello to do all that?
<bertf> yes
<Richo2> I'm sorry for my ignorance but I don't know how to use monticello
<Richo2> is there a place where I can find a tutorial or such?
<bertf> well commiting packages is simple
<bertf> the config map stuff is not
<Richo2> I was afraid of that :)
<bertf> it's not *much* harder :) 
<bertf> I need to write it up
<bertf> you can also just attach a changset to a tracker ticket
<karlram> Monticello is not that hrd
<Richo2> I know how to commit packages, but the config map is new to me
<karlram> for  most stuff
<Richo2> anyway, I don't want to bother you bert
<Richo2> there must be a place where I can search for about it
<bertf> Richo2: don't worry about bothering me :) otherwise I'm left with doing this on my own, which I don't want to
<bertf> I'll write it up in an email and then you can try it and comment
<Richo2> ok, thanks
<karlram> good
<Richo2> I'll upload the code changes I made to the inbox
<Richo2> they're very few
<bertf> yes, I would assume so
<Richo2> the framework has almost all the domain stuff ready
<Richo2> I only added the package stuff
<karlram> maybe we should documt the development process on the wiki
<bertf> and paste the do-it to the tracker ... do you know the ticket number?
<bertf> karlram: not "maybe" :)
<Richo2> I think it's in one e-mail
<bertf> we need to
<karlram> right
<karlram> darn xo keyboard is so tiny
<karlram> lol
<Richo2> xo is for kids
<Richo2> that remind me the trix commercial
<Richo2> :)
<bertf> they are making new keyboards for the XO
<karlram> im a big kid
<Richo2> silly rabit...
<bertf> uruguay is looking into XOs for older kids
<karlram> sounds interesting
<bertf> will have real key caps not the rubber membrane
<bertf> same enclosure though
<karlram> good
<bertf> they hand-made about 20 machines for testing
<karlram> still tiny keybrd then....
<karlram> lol
<matmo> For anyone who would like to test new CameraPlugin, preview here: http://www.doconnel.force9.co.uk/squeak/CameraPlugin-Linux.tar.gz
<matmo> should work on both xo's and at least Ubuntu 9.10
<bertf> http://wiki.laptop.org/go/XO_1.5_USB_Keyboard
<karlram> linux only?
<bertf> matmo: Yay!
<bertf> karlram: copy the CameraPlugin from Scratch ....
<matmo> karlram: Scratch has the Windows plugin
<bertf> should work on Mac and Win too
<karlram> ok
<karlram> i'll look at it
<bertf> that is soo cool! we'll have camera support on all platforms. Matmo is da man! :)
<bertf> the Linux tar.gz includes the changesets for testing
<matmo> well, you already had VideoForLinux plugin
<bertf> so in theory that should work on the other platforms too
<bertf> matmo: but as long as we didn't have it for the other platforms we couldn't really promote it
<matmo> bert, no, just file-out's atm. cs + mc to follow when I have the fx morphs ready
<bertf> that's fine, if someone really wants to test it, it's there :)
<matmo> bertf: yes, I appreciate any feedback from testing
<matmo> I've had it running three camera's at the same time
<bertf> neat
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<bertf> btw, the subversion repository is open again
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<bertf> http://etoys.squeak.org/svn/installers/
<bertf> it's in the same state as we left it after last year's release
<bertf> we need someone to start making beta builds
<bertf> for windows, mac, and etoys-to-go
<bertf> so that when the time comes for the release you know which buttons to push to make an installer ...
<bertf> you need to mail me your htpasswd to get commit access to svn and to the update stream (it's the same)
<bertf> I also talked to Andreas this weekend. We think next year's Etoys release might be based on a squeak.org release already ...
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<karlram> tht would be impresive
<Richo2> basing etoys in squeak would be really cool
<bertf> it's the only way forward. IMHO Squeakland should  be mainly an educational project, not a software development project
<bertf> ritaf: how does that sound? :)
<karlram> last fall Andras talked about a new format for projects
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<bertf> well there is a lot to do. we need to ensure that the old projects do still work.
<karlram> there are to many issues about software so the education is often forgotten
<ritaf> we are discussing educational issues a lot in the edu meetings :)
<karlram> old project are important
<jecel> One of the proposed ideas for GSoC was a new binary format, but it wasn't selected
<bertf> karlram: that's why I think it needs to be an education project first and foremost
<jecel> I don't think this would have addressed Andreas' concerns, however
<bertf> jecel: was that what Hilaire wanted?
<bertf> we discussed that on and off for years now
<ritaf> I'm happy to see the emphasis on education:)
<karlram> bertf> true
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<karlram> but software is so much fun:)
<karlram> bigger better toys
<jecel> bertf: I would have to check to see who had volunteered to be the mentor for that idea. I don't think it was Hilaire
<bertf> karlram: well for us coding is fun so that's a primary reason we're doing it :)
<karlram> hillare built a macro format to set up a dr geo project
<bertf> "macro format"?
<karlram> has nyone looked at that for general ue?
<karlram> macro like do this and do that
<karlram> event recording kind of
<jecel> Ah, for demonstrations?
<karlram> more for lectures
<matmo> Richo2: were you the one doing etoy morphs for various IO devices?
<bertf> have not seen it I think
<jecel> Right. Squeak/Etoys already has that, though I am not familiar with it and don't know its limitations
<karlram> event recording is very brittle
<bertf> yes :(
<karlram> if you record on  fast computer it breaks on a slow
<bertf> that's even a problem with normal projects. some anyway
<jecel> In the early days, even going from a window to full screen would mess things up. I think that has been fixed, however
<karlram> i think hillaire was more like doits as a script
<bertf> e.g. my cars on the intersection, on a fast computer it works great but on  a slower one the timing is all off so the curs crash all the time
<bertf> fun to watch but not exactly what it's supposed to show
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<karlram> i'll look hillaires stuff up. it would be nice for setting the stage or resetting the stage
<bertf> thanks. maybe report back next week, or even better by email
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<karlram> resetting can often be a pain
<bertf> ah that reminds me of an XO problem ...
<bertf> under sugar, when you quit, it automatically saves the project
<bertf> which is almost never what you want for etoys
<bertf> need to fix that really
<karlram> that could mess up projects
<bertf> it does. all the time :/
<bertf> so, the hour is almost up. anything else we need to discuss today?
<karlram> matmo asked a question
<bertf> Richo2: here's the ticket for the translation stuff I think http://tracker.squeakland.org/browse/SQ-139
<matmo> no problem, I'll email Richo later
<matmo> karlram: btw, I borg'ed your Colour Tracking, works nicely
<Richo2> oh, sorry
<Richo2> i missed the question
<Richo2> i had to do some stuff here
<karlram> camera hooked up to something like world stetoscope would be nice
<Richo2> bertf: thanks
<karlram> matmo>i have to see it
<karlram> it was a tad slow on the xo
<matmo> karlram: re WorldStehoscope, how would you hook it up?
<karlram> if you could track brigthness fo example
<matmo> re tracking, xo-1.5 should be just about ok but discovered image from camera is flipped horizontally
<karlram> or other properties
<karlram> flipped ?
<karlram> who came up with that idea??
<matmo> I don't know if it's a driver bug or intentional
<karlram> so its not like a mirror?
<bertf> karlram: unless it's flipped it's not like a mirror :)
<matmo> yes, it's a mirror image
<karlram> hm
<matmo> gtg, g'night all
<bertf> yes, the hour is over. Thanks everyone!
<scottwal> bertf:  well run meeting -- thank you!
<bertf> you're welcome to stay and chat of course :)
<karlram> bye
<karlram> bye
<scottwal> bye bye
<karlram> read to kids
<ritaf> have fun :)
<bertf> scottwal: thanks. as long as people have interesting topics it's not hard to run a meeting at all :)
<bertf> and there is good stuff happening. yay!
<Richo2> good bye guys! thanks for the help
<bertf> bye all

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