Fonts (was Re: [etoys-dev] Wording in Clouds)

Edward Cherlin echerlin at
Mon Aug 3 22:20:45 EDT 2009

On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 2:47 PM, Yoshiki Ohshima<yoshiki at> wrote:
> At Mon, 3 Aug 2009 01:51:42 -0700,
> Edward Cherlin wrote:
>> Do you know why your mail software is not rendering and retransmitting
>> Japanese correctly?
>  Mine is rendering and retransmitting Japanese mixed with Hangul
> correctly in ISO-2022-JP-2 (defined in RFC 1554 and supports mixed
> Japanese and Chinese text nicely).  As Bert wrote, if you are reading
> it through the forums gateway, that may be the problem.

Can you send to this list in Unicode? A lot of software doesn't
support ISO-2022-JP correctly in any form. It is a large and complex
standard, almost never implemented in full.
"This memo describes a text encoding scheme: "ISO-2022-JP-2", which is
used experimentally for electronic mail [RFC822] and network news
[RFC1036] messages in several Japanese networks."

How widely is ISO-2022-JP-2 implemented? I have never heard of it
before. Certainly Firefox does not support it separately from

>> Ah, well, Microsoft. Watch out for broken MS Unicode fonts for
>> Japanese and Korean that provide yen sign or weon sign in place of
>> backslash, in accordance with national variants of US-ASCII but not in
>> accordance with Unicode. One of many reasons I gave up on Windows. I
>> have had several arguments about this and related complaints on the
>> Unicode mailing list, with Japanese who claim that Unicode is broken,
>> and that we are a conspiracy of cultural imperialism. In fact we
>> follow Japanese national standards scrupulously where possible, and
>> our experts on Japanese are mainly from Japan.
>  Well, you talk as if I'm one of them with the conspiracy of cultural
> imperialism (I'm not).

Not at all. I was quite specific about where the arguments occurred.

> But you know that there is discrepancy between
> Unicode claim and practice.  Like the round-trip conversion guarantee,
> when the Unicode consortium cannot provide a standard mapping table and
> the claim is false.

The round-trip conversion guarantee does not include all prior
standards. There is a list. You would have to provide specifics (which
we could better discuss offline) for me to comment on the details.

>  And for yen sign and won sign, putting these glyphs there in a
> seemingly Unicode fonts is bad, yes.
>  But anyway, the discussion here is whether you can tell the
> languages supported by a font by looking at its name or not.  And
> answer is no.

True for Windows. I blame Microsoft.

> So let us not diverge too much.


> -- Yoshiki
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